239 points | by fork-bomber9 hours ago
https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1t...
> The revered tunic is is in fragmentary state and many small pieces less than 6cm (2.3 inches). It's pictured here in a shot from its discovery at Vergina in 1977
Source: https://www.msn.com/en-ae/news/other/alexander-the-great-s-l...
I only scanned a few bits but I was surprised to see statements like "the male skeleton had a knee injury, thus conclusively proving it was Philip" and "the female skeleton was 18 therefore proving it was Cleopatra since sources say she was young". (Paraphrasing) Etc etc. Is that all it takes to "prove" something? Could it not just be coincidence and it was someone else with a knee injury and some other ~18 year old? Or is that as far as we need to go in archeology to prove something? Put 2 and 2 together and come up with Cleopatra?
There also seems to be some sort of almost personal/ad hominem type stuff later on about other researchers who apparently criticised the author's work which surprised me ("Prag, Musgrave, and Neave continue to argue that I remain silent about Cyna ... as if it is an important issue"...)
Is this legit research?
I am only partially qualified in that I am not a professional archeologist, but I have done post-doctoral archeological studies and have read enough archeological studies to understand the larger academic context.
It is not possible to present all the data informing a judgment in such a short work. Even in a book, it would not be possible. Thus it is common in archeology for papers to be written as part of an ongoing conversation / debate with the community - which would be defined as the small handful of other archeologists doing serious research on the same specific subject matter.
Part of that context here is that these tombs are well-established to be the royal tombs of Alexander's family, spanning a few generations including his father and his son. This is one of the most heavily studied sites in Greece for obvious reasons, and that is not something anybody is trying to prove.
In that context, his arguments are trying to identify any body as one among millions, but as one among a small handful of under ten possibilities.
At the same time, the fact that he is not a native English speaker and general archeological style come into play. For example:
"the painter must have watched a Persian gazelle in Persia, since he painted it so naturalistically (contra Brecoulaki Citation2006). So the painter of Tomb II has to be Philoxenus of Eretria" sounds like a massive leap, and it is. He continues:
"... Tomb I (Tomb of Persephone) must have been painted hastily by Nicomachus of Thebes (Andronikos Citation1984; Borza Citation1987; Brecoulaki et al. Citation2023, 100), who was a very fast painter (Saatsoglou-Paliadeli Citation2011, 286) and was famous for painting the Rape of Persephone (Pliny, N. H. 35.108–109), perhaps that of Tomb I."
Another huge leap, both 'presented as conclusions'. However he then continues to indicate these are just hypotheses: "These hypotheses are consistent with the dates of the tombs..."
So his English language use of presenting things factually does not indicate certainty in the way the words would be used in everyday speech. He seems to perhaps misunderstand the force of the terms, but also appears to be working within the context of the conversation with other archeologists I mentioned to start: They all know every affirmation is as "probably", rarely anything more. So it is relatively common shorthand of the craft in that sense.
I believe you are overthinking his responses to other authors, although I understand the culture shock. It is an ongoing conversation and archeologists tend to be blunt in their assessments. Add Greek bluntness on top of this, and it does not seem to matter to the material.
As to your last question, is this legitimate research? The answer overall appears to be yes, although I could see several points (such as the identification of artists I quoted above, and various items I noticed), which I would never have put into ink the way he did. Still, most of his arguments are compelling. It is a shame that the aggressiveness of a few affirmations detract from the overall value of his work. Archeology is not code nor is it physics. It does not pursue universal truths that are more easy to verify through repeated experiments, but unique historical ones which necessarily attempt to interweave physical details and ancient historical records. Each field has its own level of certainty, and the fact that we cannot establish these details with the same certainty as we can establish the chemical formula for water does not make them useless, or pure inventions. Far from it.
All: when you notice an exceptionally good comment, please let us know at hn@ycombinator.com so we can add it.
A "35 child comments" note or similar alongside the highlighted comments might encourage more browsing.
No need to apologize for that. But I think you have a sign inversion error here:
> In that context, his arguments are trying to identify any body as one among millions
I presume you meant "his arguments are NOT trying to identify..."?
He might or might not. It's also possible that academic practice in his native language is to use terms of equivalent force.
Indeed, but after scanning this article that pulls in all those pieces of indirect evidence I wondered whether some type of structured knowledge database (that encodes the innumerable pieces of historical information that are known, tags them with confidence levels etc.) would not be useful to advance research in such domains.
Something like a large collection of RDF triplets against which you could run a query like "Given this new data point how (more)likely that Alexander the Great's tunic is identified in a royal tomb at Vergina?"
I would phrase it otherwise: supporting judgement with numbers. Its not about altering conclusions, but making more transparent the factual basis and associated reasoning from which they are derived.
The analogy would be trying some exotic food and having a list of ingredients. Yes, good to listen to a local as to how it tastes (and whether it cures all diseases), but if the indication is: 50% sugar, thats a data point worth knowing.
for example, theories on how the Polynesian migration came to be are still in flux, to the point where one theory was attempted to be proven by actually sailing to the different islands using only traditional wayfinding.
I know there have been some interesting finds when an archeologist has dug up a site report from the 1840s that had long laid ignored by academia but these are quite rare occurrences and the scale of people involved here (when we're talking about something hyper specific) is so small that they can probably just sort it out by talking to one another.
For the outside public such a neatly tagged database might be helpful if someone outside of the circle wants to independently research a subject in depth but, honestly, these folks are pretty open to questions and discussions so if you're extremely interested in Gobekli Tepe or some such there's someone out there who is happy to start a conversation with you.
yes, I think so too. In the typical fashion of "pre-digital" information management systems it is extremely economical in the way it encodes things, with statements like "X is true as shown \cite{Y}" etc. But...
> but it seems to be working quite well for the professionals in this field
what prompted my comment is exactly the fact that didn't seem to work that well in this case :-) (nb: I am not remotely an archeology boffin, just triggered by the adversarial language of the paper).
In more quantitative fields people talk about reproducible research, here its more a question of whether similar fields would benefit from "reproducible chains of reasoning".
That is the universal response to new technology: What we're doing is working fine! What they are saying is, 'everything we've accomplished has been with the old technology'.
I promise that was heard from engineers and architects encountering CAD, from cavalry asked to give up their horses (the conservative urge is so great, many died charging machine guns!), by literary scholars presented with computerized tools, .... it's always the same. One person who installed the first email systems for many businesses told me that, over and over, people would say 'our paper memos work fine - this is just technology for technology sake'. They meant, 'everything we've accomplished, we've done it with paper memos'.
New technology lets you do old things much faster and/or lets you do new things you couldn't do before - new things you didn't dream of doing, and as people discover uses for it, new things you won't know about for years.
Unsurprisingly, people tend to resist this sort of thing.
Sometimes the local maximum people are stuck in sucks, and they need a shakeup.
That shakeup will not be well received when it comes from a complete stranger, who has no rapport with the community, with zero skin in the game.
Buy-in requires their input and demonstrable benefits to them.
The research appears serious, but at first sight it doesn't seem to disprove any of the dominant thesis around Vergina.
The question "who is in tomb II?" is still open. Though recent research has provided evidence against the occupant being Philip II (and being rather Philip III) there is still a good deal of evidence "for" Philip II. The case (for Philip II) made at the (very impressive) exhibition at the Vergina museum is well explained.
The case for Cleopatra is even more tenuous but also very well explained.
The history of the elites in this period is quite well documented from multiple sources. There are some minor royals - third and fourth sons - where little is known other than some titles and lands granted, but the historical record is both comprehensive and considered accurate, particularly for those whose stories were quite shocking like the 7th wife of Philip II (Cleopatra Eurydice, the young woman whose remains are being discussed), whose death may have been suicide, or a murder made to look like suicide...
The thread they're pulling on seems to start here, from the paper:
> There is a unanimous agreement that Tomb III belongs to King Alexander IV, the son of the Great Alexander. This is important because it shows that the Great Tumulus belongs mainly to the Kings of the Argead dynasty, and this contributes significantly to the identification of Tombs I and II as belonging to either Philip II or Arrhidaeus
If accept that unanimous agreement is well-founded, and it is beyond any reasonable doubt that Tomb III belongs to the son of the Great Alexander, then it seems very likely that Tombs I and II must belong to Philip II or Arrhidaeus. The paper seems to then try and work out which one belongs to who.
Now you look through the historical record of each, and you identify that there are multiple sources indicating that Philip had a young wife (Cleopatra Eurydice), who had a young son who was murdered [1]. Then you find a tomb that along with a male, has a younger female with an infant son interred. There is no other known tomb that contains similar remains. That matches Philip II, but does not match Arrhidaeus.
You then look at the other tomb, and realise those remains better matches Arrhidaeus.
This is not proof in a scientific sense, it's not irrefutable, but you have to ask if the young woman and infant are not Cleopatra Eurydice and her son Caranus, who exactly are they? Which other persons match the known historical records? If they're people from outside of the known record, just how likely is it that they would be buried in this specific context of a tomb neighboring Alexander IV? Unless you then want to unpick that assumption of Alexander IV of course, which you're entitled to do, but you're now pushing back against a collective assumption with some significant weight (and I presume, evidence), behind it.
The rest of the paper starts to pull at the logic of other papers published over the last 60 years or so to help develop the case further, but in reality without some better science that seems absent (radio carbon dating, DNA analysis to show familial relationships of remains, and so on), it might be hard to get it over the line from "seems very likely to be the best explanation given what we know today" into "almost impossible to be explained any other way".
This is exactly the problem. History is built on stories, it's just story upon story. Licensed historians are able to augment the existing history. The stories need have nothing to do with the truth of whatever might (or might not) have happened.
Whenever you try to find the sources for this or that claim, it is impossible to do so, especially with anything ancient. When I have tried to do so, I come away feeling extremely dissatisfied, and in disagreement with whatever conclusions are being presented as fact. In every single case.
To see what I mean, here is a link to some previous research I undertook on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37927639
There is what we know, what we think we know, what we think and don’t know, and what we don’t know. And the size of those is in exponential ascending order
None of this is to denigrate the robust and important work of historians and adjacent fields. It’s just the reality
[italicizing added]
sacred means something religious or divine. While Alexander the Great is very famous, does or did anyone who came after consider Alexander to be divine? For example, while people very much admire Abraham Lincoln, nobody would associate Lincoln with divinity.
Another comment says that English may not be the first language of the author, so perhaps 'sacred' wasn't meant precisely. And it could be used, even by an English speaker, imprecisely (hopefully not in published research) or in an exaggerated fashion (also probably doesn't belong in published research).
Still, I find it interesting how a little overenthusiasm and subtle shift in terminology can change perceptions of someone.
EDIT: Better stated: Here is a modern historian calling the sarapis sacred. Why? Sacred to whom?
When Alexander conquered Egypt, he took on the role of Pharaoh, and claimed to be the son of Ra. He also began calling himself the son of Zeus.
Abraham Lincoln isn't considered a deity, but American political culture is very different from 4th-Century BC Hellenistic political culture.
There are so many other things described in ancient texts that have yet to be discovered. Herodotus for example is filled with references to places and things that were later discovered. However there are still many examples of pretty credible places and objects that remain undiscovered.
Also, fwiw, people for some reason think it’s ok or cool to criticize Herodotus’ history. It’s actually very good and he always says when he observed something for himself, or it’s something that is said by others and he felt it was important to document. However his assumptions and methods are always stated. I think honestly the main problem is it’s just a really long book so few ever read it.
Thucydides is even better.
It’s such a shame there is virtually nothing surviving from people who personally knew Alexander. His entire rise is foreshadowed all throughout Thucydides, which is amazing considering that it predates him considerably.
To me it's also just incredible how short his life was, and I imagine that contributes to how scarce first-hand accounts are. He started taking part in military campaigns at 16, became king at 20, and was dead by 32. The Wikipedia article about him mentions he had a historian (or more than one); it's a shame none of those accounts survived to today.
Sure, life expectancy back then was not what it was today, but he was still fairly young, and did a remarkable amount of conquering and expansion in a decade.
Did you forget the guy who's texts were the foundation of our civilization? Most of Aristotle's works are lost, but there is still much to read from Alexander's tutor.
https://notebooklm.google.com/notebook/0bef03c4-3ed5-4b13-90...
But let me clarify from what I have read that it's just a conjecture and not a very strong one.
In the US, anyone who remembers any ancient history will remember Alexander the Great. He's a part of every single world history curriculum, and for good reason. Whether by his own skill or luck, he reshaped most of Eurasia in his lifetime.
https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/sac...
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/30/world/europe/alexander-th...
People who rise to the occasion in times of national crisis seem to frequently be people who are on the line between somebody and nobody with people like George Washington and Caesar toward the "somebody" end and people like Napoleon and Eisenhower on the nobody end.
Not all clones will survive the pressure of all the expectations upon them, but we only need one of them to accept his destiny as Kwisatz Haderach.
You see there was a prophecy among the Bene Gesserit that a careful human breeding program could produce a genetically perfect man who could survive taking the water of life. This would enable in him an ability similar to that the Guild Navigators employ to guide their ships, but for the course of all humanity rather than the course of a single heighliner.
From the second one. So who knows, it is fairly likely to just be a guess? If it were real, I'd expect better uses of it than just by bored artists.
Edit: I should have checked the first one, they at least show an experiment (if a sloppy one). The results are...not great it seems if the goal is it being recognizable as the person in question.
No thanks. What we have now isn't great, but I'm not sure that's an improvement.
They found a fabric in a royal tomb in Greece that fits the description of Alexander's famous sarapis. What is more likely - that this is Alexander's sarapis itself or that a very rich guy had one made just like it?
I read through the original article though not very closely, and the authors wrote that the construction of the sarapis was unique in that nobody would have been allowed to construct one, and that the physical construction of the sarapis would have been profoundly expensive.
It could be the case that another rich guy went and had one made, sure, but given the above two priors you'd have to answer:
Who else at the time could afford to have such a sarapis constructed?
Is there a record of anyone with a similarly designed and constructed sarapis? Historians seem to have a good idea of who was rich and/or noble in the area at the time.
If someone at the time constructed a similarly designed sarapis in the region, who would have built it and why wouldn't have someone basically told on them for trying to copy the God King?
I don't think your point is invalid, but it would raise more questions that as far as I'm aware there seems to be little evidence for and introduce impractical logistics for the time period.