10 comments

  • soared4 天前
    I did this same thing but via a google sheet, really fun either how excellent the wiki’s API is. The profit per hour shown here is abysmal - you’d make more money doing pretty much anything.

    I’d like to see market-level and category-level analysis on price trends (ie all magic-combat gear is trending up, or this specific item has a lagging relationship with another).

    If anyone is curious, prices may be out of date but here is my profitability spreadsheet, time inputs, etc for various things using the api. This is better than the wiki since it can take into account trade limits, compare unlisted methods, hourly upkeep costs, etc. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1iekEqInA2PwEuj1W...

    You can tell likely from the methods I’m botting - turns out writing bots is even more fun than actually playing. Too bad private servers are being taken down through legal means, as I can bot there without ethical concerns.

    • partypete3 天前
      Keep in mind that the actual profit if the bot were not randomly choosing between each model version would be about 600k/hour. You're conflating the experimental profit, wherein each model only has access to 1/3 of the potential trades, to what the profit would be if only the best model were making trades.

      Also these bots have been running for over a year almost every day without being banned.

    • Salgat4 天前
      Wait why is botting okay if it's on a private server? You mean the other players are okay with it?
  • nojs5 天前
    Haha, in the heyday of Runescape it used to be possible to simply have buy and sell orders sitting in the GE for the same rare items simultaneously, and over time they’d both get filled for a profit. I guess you would call it “market making”.
    • sharperguy5 天前
      I used to wake up before school, dump my entire stack of gold on the GE for bones (just the regular ones) at a few gp below average price. By the end of the day the order would usually be fulfilled. Then I'd dump them back on the market at a few gp above average price and it would be fulfilled by the morning.

      Most days it would net me a small profit, ocasionally prices would fall slightly throughout the day and I'd lose a little, but equally some days it would rise and I'd make extra.

      • Spivak4 天前
        How could you lose money on a standing sell order for a higher price than what you bought it for?
        • sdwr4 天前
          If the market moves down after you bought, you are stuck holding the bag. You can either a) sell for a loss, or b) keep your item, and be unable to make further trades until the price (maybe?) recovers. Remember that OP put his entire stack into this, so he can't run the spread while his item isn't selling.
        • ironSkillet4 天前
          You can have unrealized losses since it's possible that the value of your items is less than the value of the goods you paid to receive them. To repeat this strategy the next day, you need to convert your items back into gold and realize the loss (or just introduce more gold via other means).
        • sidewndr464 天前
          lots of video games charge a fee of in game currency for a transaction through an auction house or other system. It acts like a sink against inflation in the video game economy
          • immibis4 天前
            RuneScape did not, and did have massive inflation, to the point that some players would have trouble keeping their wealth in gold coins due to hitting the signed integer limit.
      • andrepd5 天前
        You needed an FPGA to pull your orders on underlying price moves /s
    • mhh__4 天前
      This is indeed how market making works.
    • bboygravity5 天前
      This is actually kind of how the US market works with essentially 1 market maker who is by far the largest and who also happens to be the largest political donor (100 million a year to gop alone). Oh, and like Bernie Madoff, the owner of that market maker also owns a hedge fund (which like Bernie's makes completely impossible profits year after year). The hedge fund is of course a totally seperately run business from the market maker /s /s /s

      So that actually sounds quite realistic to me from the market maker point of view of how things actually work in the US.

      • postexitus5 天前
        This is actually how markets are made - do you think a second hand book shop operates any differently?
        • bboygravity4 天前
          Second hand book stores take people's money and then give them nothing in return? I'm referring to naked shorting and failing to deliver perpetually.

          Sorry, I fail to see the analogy.

          • postexitus2 天前
            Analogy was between market making (buying and selling the item in Runescape with a spread) and second hand book sellers (having a buy/sell price that's not equal to each other for a second hand book). Citadel Securities does not do naked shorting and does not fail to deliver - they make markets by taking position both on long and short side of the market with a spread in between. Some of the short positions they take may not have an immediate backing - but they make up for that by offering more more and attractive prices for bids making up the shortfall within a matter of milliseconds.
      • next_xibalba5 天前
        You appear to be referencing Jeff Yass and Susquehanna International Group. Why are you being cagey about saying so? Their hedge fund has had losing years, whereas, as far as I recall, Madoff never reported a loss. On what information are you basing your claims?
        • mmiyer4 天前
          They're referring to Ken Griffin / Citadel (Securities). Not that it makes their claims any less silly in terms of fundamentally misunderstanding how markets work.
          • bboygravity4 天前
            What claim about how the market works is silly exactly and why?

            My claim was that 1 person owns the 1 major US market making business AND a hedge fund. Facts: they can control the price (naked shorting + strategic FTDs) and trade on it. Even if they can't/don't control the price, they can still front run the entire market. And even if they don't do that bEcaUsE iT's iLliGaL they legally (not ethically) do it through PFOF from Robin Hood among others.

            They do all of that and way more. Just look up the continuous massive FINRA and SEC violations and the (tiny) fines they pay for it.

            But I'm sure all is fine and dandy. I find it mind blowing why anybody would defend the biggest crook since Madoff.

            • next_xibalba4 天前
              > they can control the price (naked shorting + strategic FTDs) and trade on it

              This is the bit that seems poorly substantiated and unlikely. Please elaborate. Anything evidence you can cite would be helpful.

              Also, Citadel’s HF has definitely had down years.

              • bboygravity4 天前
                I understand. I found it mind blowing and unbelievable too at first. I can recommend this book:

                Naked, Short and Greedy: Wall Street's Failure to Deliver (2020)

                Susanne Trimbath

                It's full of examples and evidence from someone who has worked at the SEC.

            • mmiyer4 天前
              You should be happy that market makers like Citadel Securities exist. Payment for order flow is why commission free trading can exist. Citadel Securities, Virtu, Hudson River Trading, Jump Trading etc compete in a negative sum game which reduces the bid ask spread on various assets (i.e. make them cheaper to trade for everyone).

              Also lol that a hedge fund with about 1% of total hedge fund assets controls prices. What do you think the other hedge funds and trading firms are doing?

              • glockjock1 天前
                Actually, this could all be done with a blockchain bid and ask trading system that would match all bids and asks and execute without Yass and Griffin and Mercer. If Susquehanna and Citadel and Renaissance want to do it then every transaction should be taxed on a scale and the money used to pay down the national debt, or into next gen energy infrastructure. These guys are buying yachts, Lamborghinis, and elections.
              • immibis4 天前
                Presumably (s/he thinks) the other hedge funds are not also market makers.
        • glockjock1 天前
          Yass, Griffin and Mercer cannot lose. They make a profit on every transaction on a listed exchange whenever they want, using inventory or front running bids and asks w faster computers than the rest of us have. They also do naked shorting and spoofing on bids and asks- disingenuous large blocks that are entered to start a stampede and then pulled after the carnage. They are crook billionaires and that's all they are. They don't want to be regulated or taxed, and that's why they're trying to buy the election. They are evil.....
  • kayson5 天前
    This reminds me of when World of Warcraft had a mobile app that allowed you to both browse the auction house and list or buy items. The API was pretty trivial to reverse engineer, making it easy to write an auction house bot. I never got as sophisticated as any ML algorithm, just snagged grossly mispriced items and bought/sold based on the last week's price range; it was mostly about volume. Made a tidy profit, bought my 1mil gold mount then gave up. The app was taken down soon after, no doubt in part because I'm sure I was not the only person doing this.
    • bongodongobob4 天前
      WoW never cared about playing the market, it was probably taken down due to the way it was implemented. To be an external app, it probably had accounts idling and refreshing the AH and pushing that out to the app. I used the Auctioneer in game addon for a decade.
  • alex11385 天前
    I'm not sure you can say enough good things about RS in general, aside from the very legitimate complaints the community has about the ownership, but basically it's a 20+ year game that's still getting updates, still getting new weapons and quests and level caps
  • orange_puff4 天前
    I really enjoyed the article, as I am also a nerd who has played runescape for what seems like forever now, and now most of my interaction with the game is via programming. I have two types of bots I use mostly, color bots, where a screenshot is taken and objects are detected by their surrounding pixel colors, and basic click bots. I've actually found that ~100 lines of python code using pyautogui is more than enough to automate tons of annoying aspects of the game.

    I am curious, is your Java client one of the many open source bot clients that actually calls into client code? Or is it some type of click script which does some repetitive inputs?

    I have had bad luck with the former in terms of getting banned.

  • knuckleheads4 天前
    I did something like this on Hypixel for a month or two. Watched the prices for inputs to various crafting recipes as well as the craft recipes output prices themselves on a loop, and whenever it hit a certain profit level, play a chime and I would go run some crafts. Easy enough to pull the info off of https://wiki.hypixel.net , and https://wiki.hypixel.net/Travel_Scrolls were the ones that most often had good returns. You needed a certain skill/level to make them, so the prices didn't even out too fast. Got tired of it eventually as the game wasn't so deep, but it's fun to mess around with for sure.
    • mhh__4 天前
      Arbitrage much more fun when r=0
  • beoberha5 天前
    Sorry if I’m just bad at reading comprehension, but what exactly is being modeled here? It sounds like the author is just getting price data not unlike a candlestick chart. What I don’t understand is if the trading is happening within the 5 minute windows he mentions or if model is finding patterns across timeframes?
    • Frummy5 天前
      So I don’t know this stuff so I’ll stochastically parrot a reply here of my understanding of what I just read.

      The ML model is trained on the price spread and volume data collected with the cronjob every 5 minutes and stored in a database, and the trades with their respective data, but on previously collected data from 63 days up to 14 days earlier and then validated on the remaining later 14 days of data, apparently to not have temporal leakage which I googled and means unintentional backflow of training data which screws up the prediction. So to answer your question the model finds patterns over multiple weeks of data, to rank the best trading choices in the present moment. Then the java component executes the trade in-game with the player character.

      What I personally don’t understand is if this data collection and training is rolling continually, or if he let it be trained one shot and then it’s smart enough to remain profitable. Don’t entirely understand the 49 day training, 14 day validation thing either.

      • partypete5 天前
        That’s right - I retrained the model every 7 days. These experiment results are from the most recent one-week period.
    • partypete5 天前
      The training data is composed of the bot’s previously executed trades from the last 63 days joined on the price/volume data. So the model discovers patterns in the price/volume data that have historically lead to well-performing trades. The dependent variable is gold/second generated from a historical trade.
      • beoberha4 天前
        Thanks! But how was the bot running before the training data existed? I think that’s what I was missing. The baseline?
  • naming_the_user4 天前
    I made approx 1K GBP as a young teenager trading in RuneScape prior to the introduction of the GE.

    Haggle people down to say 6 mil for a party hat I'd sell for 6.5, repeat, when I quit the game I sold it all on eBay, my mum was rather surprised when the money came in.

    Hourly rate? Awful.

    I very much doubt that I'd be where I am today without that experience though.

    • dleink4 天前
      What line of work are you in now?
      • naming_the_user4 天前
        Entrepreneur, multiple income streams, software is one of them.
    • rightbyte3 天前
      > for a party hat

      O dear I've forgot about how saught after those were.

      • naming_the_user3 天前
        One of my regrets is that I never quite got to own a Blue.
  • mrklol3 天前
    "two cronjobs that interact with the OSRS Wiki API: one that polls it every 5 minutes, and another that polls it every hour"

    Why two? Isn’t the latter useless as you have the same information in the current 5m interval?

  • noitpmeder4 天前
    Has anyone done similar experiments with EVE's marketplace?
    • night8624 天前
      Yes, a LOT of people.

      There is a lot of this in EvE Online and it's a valid and welcome play style. Unfortunately, everybody will tell you its opsec if you ask for details.

      If you want more information about EvE Online's extremely deep and intricate economy (Essentially everything is built by players who mine ore to make components who resell to integrators that have associated distributors and clients and so forth) you can check Oz on youtube who makes market and market analysis content ( https://www.youtube.com/@OZeve )

      Very closely related, EvE Online now has an official MS Excel plugin from Microsoft with full API integration with EvE Online. This game is an effective way to become an expert using MS Excel and its full, powerful integrations: Oz' Quick Guide: https://youtu.be/eAogNNeDZuo

      EvE Online also has a convention where our EvE Ted Talks are presented to one another (like defcon) called Fanfest. Here's 51 minutes: Fanfest 2023 "Market Spreadsheet Masterclass" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ql6IU1eZpM

      If you have an idea, or want to see if you can do this, the free-to-play account can for zero dollars if you already have an MS Excel license or are able to integrate your own solution. The limitation is you will start with zero capital, knowledge, intuition, and F2P accounts can't make nearly as many orders as a fully skilled character.